Your views on the current Israeli aggression in Gaza

[mountainhiker]

Simon says:

>>None of these rockets and mortars is the work of Hamas<<

Why do you say that? Because nobody claimed responsibility for some of the rockets?

Miguel says:

>>But i do think that what the British did after WW2 was wrong and that the Arabs have the right to be angry about it<<

And the Jews could be angry too! And they could also be angry at the Italians who expelled them from the Land of Israel a couple of thousand years ago and at the Spanish who expelled them from Spain in the 1400s. And the Brits could still be angry at the Swedes over Viking raids and at the Germans, Italians and Japanese. And black Americans could still be angry at the white Americans who imported their ancestors. And both black and white Americans could be angry at the Brits. Get over it! The Muslim world needs to accept that things are as they are and to work towards peace. Were every country, race and religion to hold onto their old grudges, the whole world would be at war!

>>So what would you do if your country was occupied?<<

Were I a Gazan, I'd want my government to accept that Israel has a right to exist. I'd want my government to remove from its official Charter all references to killing Jews and "raising the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." I'd want my government to cease the actions that cause it to be branded as a terrorist organization by almost every country in the world. I'd want my government to break its links with Islamic Jihad and other terrorist organizations. Once that had been done, I'd want my government to come to the negotiating table with Israel and work out a deal.

Excellent points and I think a key is the willingness to accept that Israel has a right to exist. And you have to stop pretending that the people that live in Gaza and the Hamas are the same. They are not. Hamas was and is a terroist organization that must be delt with as step one to any peace plan. You cannot allow them to continue with the rocket attacks and expect any peace process to work.

[only_green_no_gray]

And you miss a key point or two, Israel has existed for more than 50 years and this was NEVER the land of Hamas. They do not have the right to murder who they please. Clearly anti-semitic types support them and continue to paint them as some kind of heros fighting for their "mother country". brettbh is correct in his brief history lesson, but the bottom line is that you cannot support a bunch of criminals trying to bring down a government recognized by the UN as being valid. Angry over what happened at the end of WWII is fine but at some point you have to accept the reality of history.

Never said that they had the right to murder anybody, but they have the right to defend themselves or not?

And the Jews could be angry too! And they could also be angry at the Italians who expelled them from the Land of Israel a couple of thousand years ago and at the Spanish who expelled them from Spain in the 1400s. And the Brits could still be angry at the Swedes over Viking raids and at the Germans, Italians and Japanese. And black Americans could still be angry at the white Americans who imported their ancestors. And both black and white Americans could be angry at the Brits. Get over it! The Muslim world needs to accept that things are as they are and to work towards peace. Were every country, race and religion to hold onto their old grudges, the whole world would be at war!

Some people get over it better than others

Were I a Gazan, I'd want my government to accept that Israel has a right to exist. I'd want my government to remove from its official Charter all references to killing Jews and "raising the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." I'd want my government to cease the actions that cause it to be branded as a terrorist organization by almost every country in the world. I'd want my government to break its links with Islamic Jihad and other terrorist organizations. Once that had been done, I'd want my government to come to the negotiating table with Israel and work out a deal.

Not what i meant. I meant YOUR country not if you lived in Gaza

[brettbh]

>>Never said that they had the right to murder anybody, but they have the right to defend themselves or not?<<

Yup, but Hamas does not want to simply defend itself; (according to its Charter), Hamas wants to kill the Jews:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

And then "Raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine."

>>Not what i meant. I meant YOUR country not if you lived in Gaza<<

Were the Canadian government to be similar to Hamas, I'd want them to do exactly as I said.

[only_green_no_gray]

>>Never said that they had the right to murder anybody, but they have the right to defend themselves or not?<<

Yup, but Hamas does not want to simply defend itself; (according to its Charter), Hamas wants to kill the Jews:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

And then "Raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine."

Even so i heard on the news that the leader of Hamas is in favor of negotiations

>>Not what i meant. I meant YOUR country not if you lived in Gaza<<

Were the Canadian government to be similar to Hamas, I'd want them to do exactly as I said.

Well if my country was occupied by another country i would want that the gov did what he could to stop the invasion.

[brettbh]

Even so i heard on the news that the leader of Hamas is in favor of negotiations .

See the extract from the Al Jazeera interview in this post.

[Simon]

Why do you say that? Because nobody claimed responsibility for some of the rockets? Or because some previously unheard of group claimed reponsibility?

Or maybe it was individuals in Gaza who fired those home-made rockets that anyone can make because they were frustrated and angry over the fact that Israel NEVER held their part of the agreement?

Were I a Gazan, I'd want my government to accept that Israel has a right to exist. I'd want my government to remove from its official Charter all references to killing Jews and "raising the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." I'd want my government to cease the actions that cause it to be branded as a terrorist organization by almost every country in the world. I'd want my government to break its links with Islamic Jihad and other terrorist organizations. Once that had been done, I'd want my government to come to the negotiating table with Israel and work out a deal.

Oh come on Brett. Get real here. If you have been bombed, oppressed, terrorized and your whole city is in a siege by Israel you would be mad as hell against them.

And you have to stop pretending that the people that live in Gaza and the Hamas are the same. They are not.

Ah so that is why Israel has killed over 900 innocent people and children so far, but nearly none Hamas fighter? That explains a thing or two...

Hamas was and is a terroist organization that must be delt with as step one to any peace plan. You cannot allow them to continue with the rocket attacks and expect any peace process to work.

Hamas was created as a result of the occupation by Israel. They are the democratically elected government there and compared to the corrupt opposition Fatah they funds extensive social programs. They have also offered to extend the truce if Israel would only lift the siege on Gaza, despite the fact that Israel never held their part of the cease-fire agreements. So it seems that Israel is the aggressor and the one who wants to wipe out the other part.

But maybe you should just go and watch some more "objective" and "true" stories from your "media" in the US of A?

[only_green_no_gray]

But the truth is that this government ordered a criminal war.

Some Israelis are so anti-Semitic :whistle:

More...

[brettbh]

Simon says:

>>Or maybe it was individuals in Gaza who fired those home-made rockets that anyone can make because they were frustrated and angry over the fact that Israel NEVER held their part of the agreement?<<

I suspect that the majority of rockets fired before, during and after the ceasefire were the work of individuals rather than official representative of Hamas. I also suspect that Hamas did nothing to stop the firing of those rockets. I wonder how many people Hamas has imprisoned for firing rockets into Israel?

>>Oh come on Brett. Get real here. If you have been bombed, oppressed, terrorized and your whole city is in a siege by Israel you would be mad as hell against them.<<

I'd like to think I'd be a realist and recognize that the attacks were due to the actions of the terrorist body that was acting as my government.

>>They have also offered to extend the truce if Israel would only lift the siege on Gaza.<<

Pah! I suggest you go back and read the previously posted interview with Hamas:

Abu Marzouq: We have three conditions for any peace initiative coming from any state. First, the aggression of the Israelis should stop. All of the gates should be opened, including the gate of Rafah between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. Finally, Israel has to withdraw from the Gaza Strip. We are not saying we will stop firing rockets from the Gaza Strip to Israel - we are only talking about stopping the aggression from the Israelis against the civilian population in the Gaza Strip.

So, basically what they want is for Israel to stop bombing them while they continue to bomb Israel. They are not willing to recongize the right of Israel to exist and will not enter into a long-term agreement that would enable Israel to continue to exist. What do you think would happen if Israel were to withdraw from the Strip and open the gates? Do you think the attacks would stop? No, of course they would not - Hamas have even stated that they would not. Hamas would simply use it as an opportunity to build up weapons which would then be used to attempt to remove Israel from the map. Ultimately, Hamas want to do exactly as it says in their Charter: raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.

Miguel says:

>>Some Israelis are so anti-Semitic<<

No, some Israelis simply oppose the war - in the exactly same way that some Americans and Brits opposed the war in Iraq.

Both you and Simon seem to think that being critical of Hamas translates to supporting Israeli actions, but that's not the case. Were MountainHiker to decide to start chucking dog turds into Mike Tyson's yard because he thought he had some claim over Mike's property and was determined to force him out, I doubt that Mike would respond simply by chucking some dog poop back. His response would most likely be completely disproportionate: he'd probably beat MountainHiker senseless and bite off his ears. And what would happen if MountainHiker were to promise to stop chucking turds but then they kept on being thrown from his property onto Mike's? Would Mike believe him when he said that it wasn't him, but his buddies who were now throwing them? Probably not. But even if he did believe it, he'd probably still beat MountainHiker senseless again for permitting his buddies to do it. Now, Mike is a real bad ass and I certainly wouldn't support his OTT actions - but, at the same time, I wouldn't support MountainHiker's either. He's the cause of the problem and should never have chucked (or permitted his buddies to chuck) poop from his yard into Mike's. The dispute will only end when either 1. MountainHiker accepts that the property is rightfully Mike's and stops chucking poop or 2. a neighbour steps in and forces them to reach an agreement.

Option #2 is exactly what needs to happen in Gaza. The UN should step in, enforce a ceasefire and pull both sides to the negotiating table to hammer out a deal which can lead to lasting peace.

[only_green_no_gray]

No, some Israelis simply oppose the war - in the exactly same way that some Americans and Brits opposed the war in Iraq.

Both you and Simon seem to think that being critical of Hamas translates to supporting Israeli actions, but that's not the case. Were MountainHiker to decide to start chucking dog turds into Mike Tyson's yard because he thought he had some claim over Mike's property and was determined to force him out, I doubt that Mike would respond simply by chucking some dog poop back. His response would most likely be completely disproportionate: he'd probably beat MountainHiker senseless and bite off his ears. And what would happen if MountainHiker were to promise to stop chucking turds but then they kept on being thrown from his property onto Mike's? Would Mike believe him when he said that it wasn't him, but his buddies who were now throwing them? Probably not. But even if he did believe it, he'd probably beat MountainHiker senseless again for permitting his buddies to do it. Now, Mike is a real bad ass and I certainly wouldn't support his OTT actions - but, at the same time, I wouldn't support MountainHiker's either. He's the cause of the problem and should never have chucked (or permitted his buddies to chuck) poop from his yard into Mike's. The dispute will only end when either 1. MountainHiker accepts that the property is rightfully Mike's and stops chucking poop or 2. a neighbour steps in and forces them to reach an agreement.

Option #2 is exactly what needs to happen in Gaza. The UN should step in, enforce a ceasefire and pull both sides to the negotiating table to hammer out a deal which can lead to lasting peace.

I think that in this case Mike Tyson was the one that started the fight

[brettbh]

>>I think that in this case Mike Tyson was the one that started the fight<<

Not at all. Mike simply wants live in peace in a house that has belonged to his family for more than 50 years. But MountainHiker is PO'd because the high priest of the local snake handling cult supposedly promised his great, great, great granddaddy that that property would remain in the MountainHiker family for all eternity. That's why MountainHiker thinks that the property is rightfully his and that's why he started throwing poo into Mike's yard. Furthermore, MountainHiker has stated that Mike's yard is going to keep on being bombarded with excrement until he ups and leaves and, "The banner of MountainHiker is raised over every inch of the property."

[mountainhiker]

>>I think that in this case Mike Tyson was the one that started the fight<<

Not at all. Mike simply wants live in peace in a house that has belonged to his family for more than 50 years. But MountainHiker is PO'd because the high priest of the local snake handling cult supposedly promised his great, great, great granddaddy that that property would remain in the MountainHiker family for all eternity. That's why MountainHiker thinks that the property is rightfully his and that's why he started throwing poo into Mike's yard. Furthermore, MountainHiker has stated that Mike's yard is going to keep on being bombarded with excrement until he ups and leaves and, "The banner of MountainHiker is raised over every inch of the property."

However, at this point the UN should step in between hamas and Israel, enforce a ceasefire and pull both sides to the negotiating table to hammer out a deal which can lead to lasting peace in theory. Only then will they realize that to "enforce a ceasefire" they will have to kill off enough of hamas that they will no longer be a threat. B)

[brettbh]

>>Only then will they realize that to "enforce a ceasefire" they will have to kill off enough of hamas that they will no longer be a threat.<<

Not necessarily. Put a UN peacekeeping force into Gaza, and the Israelis will invariably stop shelling it. And, unlike Afghanistan and Iraq, Gaza is small enough that it could easily be policed in order to ensure that no further rockets are fired at Israel. Once such a ceasefire is in place, both sides should brought to the negotiating table and cautioned that, unless they reach an agreement which will bring a permanent end to hostilities, the international community will decide who gets control over what and that, in the pending that happening, both sides will face extraordinary sanctions.

Beyond this, a solution needs to be found to end the ongoing dispute between the Muslim/Arab world and the Christian/Jewish world. There is constant tension between Iran and the US, between Jordan and Israel, etc., etc., etc. That has to stop. And in order for it to stop, we in the West have to accept some responsibility for the disputes and conflicts. While it's easy to blame the problems entirely on radical Muslim extremists, that is certainly not the case. We have meddled in Middle Eastern affairs and shaped our foreign policies simply in order to ensure our continued access to their oil (at a reasonable price). We buddied up to Saddam while he was gleefully gassing Kurds, but then decided he was the enemy when Iraqi tanks rolled into oil-rich Kuwait. The second war we then waged on Iraq was very probably motivated not by the threat of WMD, but by Iraq's massive reserves of oil ("I don't think the war would have happened if Iraq didn't have the second-largest oil reserves in the world," Sir Jonathan Porritt, advisor to Blair. "I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil," Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the US Federal Reserve). Tens of thousands of civilians died during that conflict. We tortured them. We imprisoned them without access to any form of legal process. Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo should cause us to hang our heads in shame. Shrub and Blair should undoubtedly be indicted on war crime charges. The matter needs to be investigated thoroughly and impartially - and not simply by commissions within their own countries. They commenced a war without backing/permission from the UN Security Council and seemingly breached the UN Charter that prohibits war except in cases of self-defence. And their actions resulted in a massive loss of life. Should it be found that Shrub and Blair had reasonable grounds to believe that Iraq possessed WMD which presented a real risk to the US/UK, they should be completely exonerated. But should the evidence not support that, they should spend the remainder of their days in Guantanamo Bay. There is absolutely no reason why Shrub and Blair should be allowed to completely disregard international law and then avoid prosecution. Saddam was (rightly) brought to trial for his offences against humanity, and Shrub and Blair should be too. They need to be indicted in order to both ensure the integrity of US/UK political systems and to restore the confidence of the international community (including the Muslim community) in the US/UK.

The time has come to admit our failings and change. When we become involved in Middle Eastern affairs, we should act for the good of the people in that area and not simply for the good of our economies. Similarly, our foreign policies should stop being dictated by access to cheap oil. We need to come together with the Muslim world and reach an agreement for lasting peace, but that will not happen while we continue to see ourselves as the blameless good guys and them as the evil bad guys.

Maybe the Christian, Jewish and Arab nations should all heed the final words of the well-known philanthropist and humanitarian, Saddam Hussein ;-)

"Remember that God has enabled you to become an example of love, forgiveness and brotherly coexistence ... I call on you not to hate because hate does not leave a space for a person to be fair and it makes you blind and closes all doors of thinking and keeps away one from balanced thinking and making the right choice."

[mountainhiker]

Maybe the Christian, Jewish and Arab nations should all heed the final words of the well-known philanthropist and humanitarian, Saddam Hussein ;-)

"Remember that God has enabled you to become an example of love, forgiveness and brotherly coexistence ... I call on you not to hate because hate does not leave a space for a person to be fair and it makes you blind and closes all doors of thinking and keeps away one from balanced thinking and making the right choice."

And look where talking out of both sides of his mouth got him

So far hamas has been pretty blind but we will see how well they stick to this next ceasefire and if they start shooting the minute they decide it is over. As long as they refuse to change their attitude, it does not matter how much effort the other side puts into it and trying to blame the "West" only goes so far. At some point hamas has to come to the same table.

[brettbh]

>>As long as they refuse to change their attitude, it does not matter how much effort the other side puts into it and trying to blame the "West" only goes so far. At some point hamas has to come to the same table.<<

Should Hamas not be willing to change their Charter and accept the right of Israel to exist, Gaza should be temporarily placed under international rule. To end this conflict, the international community needs to enable - as fairly as possible - either for the creation of a state for Arabs within Palestine or for Gaza and the West Bank to be merged into Israel (there is already a sizeable Arab population in Israel, so this is certainly a possibility - in fact, it's something which some Palestinians have already called for). Which is the better option? Dunno, but it's something on which both sides could hopefully agree. The extremists would not be happy, but the majority of ordinary Gazans and Israelis would be glad for the dispute to be at an end.

I'm not blaming the West for the Arab/Israel dispute, but the West is certainly partially to blame for its own bad relations with the Arab world.

[Simon]

Some Israelis are so anti-Semitic :whistle:

More...

Ah yes. Even the Israelis has some morals and even free press compared to the Americans.

However, at this point the UN should step in between hamas and Israel, enforce a ceasefire and pull both sides to the negotiating table to hammer out a deal which can lead to lasting peace in theory. Only then will they realize that to "enforce a ceasefire" they will have to kill off enough of hamas that they will no longer be a threat.

Unfortunately your government is doing whatever it can to please its zionist masters, and that includes stopping all progress at the UN. I guess Olmert was right when he bragged about Israel dictating US foreign policy.

Now not even CNN can keep quiet about Israels war crimes in Gaza: CNN Confirms Israel Use Of White Phosphorus. And what is Israels answer? Well they bomb a mediahouse where press like Reuters and CNN are reporting from in Gaza. Besides that they bomb yet another UN Hospital and UN offices in Gaza.

Israelis 'shot at fleeing Gazans'

Claims have been received by the BBC and an Israeli human rights group that Israeli troops have fired on Gaza residents trying to escape the conflict area.

BBC journalists in Gaza and Israel have compiled detailed accounts of the claims.

Some Palestinian civilians in Gaza say Israeli forces shot at them as they tried to leave their homes - in some cases bearing white flags.

One testimony heard by the BBC and human rights group B'tselem describes Israeli forces shooting a woman in the head after she stepped out of her house carrying a piece of white cloth, in response to an Israeli loudhailer announcement.

[mountainhiker]

Ah yes. Even the Israelis has some morals and even free press compared to the Americans.

Unfortunately your government is doing whatever it can to please its zionist masters, and that includes stopping all progress at the UN. I guess Olmert was right when he bragged about Israel dictating US foreign policy.

Now not even CNN can keep quiet about Israels war crimes in Gaza: CNN Confirms Israel Use Of White Phosphorus. And what is Israels answer? Well they bomb a mediahouse where press like Reuters and CNN are reporting from in Gaza. Besides that they bomb yet another UN Hospital and UN offices in Gaza.

Israelis 'shot at fleeing Gazans'

Claims have been received by the BBC and an Israeli human rights group that Israeli troops have fired on Gaza residents trying to escape the conflict area.

BBC journalists in Gaza and Israel have compiled detailed accounts of the claims.

Some Palestinian civilians in Gaza say Israeli forces shot at them as they tried to leave their homes - in some cases bearing white flags.

One testimony heard by the BBC and human rights group B'tselem describes Israeli forces shooting a woman in the head after she stepped out of her house carrying a piece of white cloth, in response to an Israeli loudhailer announcement.

Maybe if you were not so clearly anti-Semitic you would have read the articles that you linked to and found that the article was not as one sided as you imply. Amazing that you totally ignore the fact that hamas is not honoring the cease fire.

[brettbh]

So, Simon, what do you think the solution is to this crisis?

[Simon]

Maybe if you were not so clearly anti-Semitic you would have read the articles that you linked to and found that the article was not as one sided as you imply. Amazing that you totally ignore the fact that hamas is not honoring the cease fire.

First of all. Dont try to twist the facts around. Israel NEVER held their part of the cease-fire agreement and they started this war, not Hamas.

Secondly. All decent, anti-racist people – including all decent, anti-racist Jews - adhere to the core messages of the Jewish Holocaust (5-6 million dead, 1 in 6 dying from deprivation) and of the WW2 European Holocaust in general (30 million Slav, Jewish and Roma dead), specifically "zero tolerance for racism", "never again to anyone" and "bear witness" – core moral messages grossly violated by neo-cons, Bush-ites and racist Zionists (RZs).

The identification of Zionism with "Judaism" is FALSE (in fact Orthodox Judaism completely rejects return to Zion until the Moschiach (Messiah) reveals the glory of Adonai (the Lord) to ALL the World).

Anti-Semitism comes in 2 equally repugnant forms, anti-Arab anti-Semitism and anti-Jewish anti-Semitism.

Zionism is racist and specifically anti-Arab anti-Semitic in its practice in word and deed of race-based invasion, occupation, disempowerment, dispossession and genocide of the Indigenous Palestinians (Palestinian Genocide).

Accordingly, identification of racist Zionism with "all Jews" is demonstrably FALSE – indeed Zionist identification of their evil, racist program with "Jews" can be seen as anti-Jewish anti-Semitic.

Possibly the most famous Jewish American scholar today is Professor Jared Diamond who, in his best-selling book "Collapse" (Prologue, p10, Penguin 2007 edition), unequivocally refers to the "moral principle, namely that it is morally wrong for one people to dispossess, subjugate, or exterminate another people."

And last but not least: Evidence Grows That Israel is Using White Phosphorus in Gaza

[mountainhiker]

Possibly the most famous Jewish American scholar today is Professor Jared Diamond who, in his best-selling book "Collapse" (Prologue, p10, Penguin 2007 edition), unequivocally refers to the "moral principle, namely that it is morally wrong for one people to dispossess, subjugate, or exterminate another people."

SO, I take that you agree that Hamas is wrong in their attitude of exterminating the Jews in Israel! :D

[brettbh]

>>Israel NEVER held their part of the cease-fire agreement and they started this war, not Hamas.<<

Get real, Simon! Hamas is a violent fundamentalist regime, bankrolled by Iran and (rightly) branded as a terrorist organization by pretty much every country in the world. Hamas' stated mission is the destruction of the state of Israel. Hamas has persecuted Gazan Christians, Gazan Jews and Gazan homosexuals all of which have sought - and been granted - asylum within Israel. Hamas fired (or permitted to be fired) rockets into Israel throughout the period of the ceasefire. Those rockets may not have resulted in substantial casualities, but nonetheless could not be ignored by the Israeli government (what government would/could permit its people to be fired upon without responding?). That's not to say that the disproportionate Israeli response is warranted. There are bloody-minded idiots on both side of this conflict.

So, I'll ask you again, Simon - what would be your preferred solution to this problem?

[Simon]

Someone from the Norwegian Ministry for Foreign Affairs has in an mass-email compared pictures from Nazi-Germany and Israel.

Is Israel the new Nazi-Germany? Take a look at these images and see for yourself.

Just a few of the images.. More here.

And here are some other images:

[mountainhiker]

Too bad the person in the Norwegian Ministry was not smart enough to picture the damage caused by Hamas! But thats what happens when you choose to only see one side of an issue! <_<

[Simon]

Too bad the person in the Norwegian Ministry was not smart enough to picture the damage caused by Hamas! But thats what happens when you choose to only see one side of an issue!

Where is that damage?

[brettbh]

Click.

[mountainhiker]

Click.

Here are images that Simon does not wish to see - the part he chooses to be totally blind to,

murder by hamas!