Your views on the current Israeli aggression in Gaza

[mountainhiker]

Tell me, in these circumstances, what would you want the Swedish government to do, Simon? What would you expect them to do if terrorists were killing members of your family because they Sweden to cease to exist as a country?

You did not answer my question.

Simon cannot answer the question because then he would have to admit that what Hamas has been doing for years is wrong, and I don't think you can get an anti-Semitic person to EVER admit that. <_<

[Simon]

Simon cannot answer the question because then he would have to admit that what Hamas has been doing for years is wrong, and I don't think you can get an anti-Semitic person to EVER admit that.

Buhu! I am questioning Israels behavior and actions. Well. Hmm. Then I must surely be an anti-semitic person. Cause we all know that if you question the actions by the Israeli government you are a fucking Jew hater.

All discussions regarding Israel usually ends by its defendors calling the opponent in a discussion anti-semitic. But ***k you. Yes you read right. Dont ****ing call me anti-semitic again.

[mountainhiker]

Buhu! I am questioning Israels behavior and actions. Well. Hmm. Then I must surely be an anti-semitic person. Cause we all know that if you question the actions by the Israeli government you are a fucking Jew hater.

All discussions regarding Israel usually ends by its defendors calling the opponent in a discussion anti-semitic. But ***k you. Yes you read right. Dont ****ing call me anti-semitic again.

My suggestion is that if you don't want to be called anti-semitic then do not respond to brettbh and myself as if you were!

You have taken a 100% one sided view that Hamas was the ever innocent victum, totally ignoring the reality of history.

Brettbh made an excellent point

Tell me, in these circumstances, what would you want the Swedish government to do, Simon? What would you expect them to do if terrorists were killing members of your family because they Sweden to cease to exist as a country? You did not answer my question.

If you are not willing to take a hard look at how you are responding and admit that there is another side then I suggest that we stop this thread since your language is abusive. :sceptical: :info:

[brettbh]

>>Experiencing such pain and misery like the people living in Gaza does every day for such a long period of time I dont doubt that I also would want to see those responsible dead.<<

The misery and pain of the Gazans is not the cause of the conflict; rather, it is that Hamas want Israel to cease to exist. Were Hamas to obtain weapons that would enable the obliteration of Israel, you can bet your bottom dollar that those weapons would be used.

>>When you say "Israel", never say "supported by the USA, the UK, European countries and even some Arab regimes", for people (God forbid) might believe this is not an equal conflict.<<

Why do some Arab regimes support Israel? It's because Hamas is alligned organizations such as Islamic Jihad which not only want to see Israel obliterated, but which also want to see the governments toppled in the Arab nations which they consider to be too Western.

[Simon]

My suggestion is that if you don't want to be called anti-semitic then do not respond to brettbh and myself as if you were!

You have taken a 100% one sided view that Hamas was the ever innocent victum, totally ignoring the reality of history.

See. That is my point. If you complain about any actions by the Israelis you are called an anti-semitic. You are not allowed to question or accuse Israel about anything because if you do, gods forbid, you must be a racist and an anti-semitic. Of course!!

It doesnt matter that Israel breaks pretty much every human and international law in their genocide and nazi-like treatment of the Palestinians. You are not allowed to question them. If you do, like the UN has done several times, Israel will bomb your UN schools and UN outpost and kill UN peacekeepers.

And I don't think that you, an American, have the right to say that I am not objective and only has a "one sided view". Because hey, you live in a third world country which cant even run an democratic and fair political election and where the news media dont even understand what objectivity means. USA a third world country that spends all its money on wars and weapons, who needs Venezuaela, another third world country, to supply its poor people with oil to keep them warm during the winters. What a JOKE!

Brettbh made an excellent point

If you are not willing to take a hard look at how you are responding and admit that there is another side then I suggest that we stop this thread since your language is abusive. :sceptical: :info:

First of all he did not even answer my question so why should I answer his?

And secondly, that is an absurd question. Of course we wouldn't be doing like Israel if we were in that situation. Cause we have morals and we treat our neighbours and other countries and people with respect. Something that the US and Israel have proven to lack over and over again.

I just heard on the radio that the Israelis had bombed a large house. And the Red Cross wanted to go there and help the people there but they were not allowed by the Israelis. So after 3 DAYS of negotiations the Israelis allowed the Red Cross access to the house. When they got there the Israeli army had surrounded this big house which was in ruins and started to dig a huge moat around its area. Inside the ruins the Red Cross found 3 small children, badly hurt and barely alive. Around these 3 children there was 12 dead people, including their parents, laying dead on the ground. The Israeli army which had been there for over 3 days DID nothing to help the children or the Red Cross. What a bunch of disgusting monsters!

[mountainhiker]

Of course we wouldn't be doing like Israel if we were in that situation. Cause we have morals and we treat our neighbours and other countries and people with respect.

Right, your government would just standby and let them shell your country and kill your citizens, total Bull Shit! :lol:

[brettbh]

>>I just heard on the radio that the Israelis had bombed a large house. And the Red Cross wanted to go there and help the people there but they were not allowed by the Israelis. So after 3 DAYS of negotiations the Israelis allowed the Red Cross access to the house. When they got there the Israeli army had surrounded this big house which was in ruins and started to make a huge wall around its area. Inside the ruins the Red Cross found 3 small children, badly hurt and barely alive. Around these 3 children there was 12 dead people, including their parents, laying dead on the ground.<<

Sad. And it's equally sad that numerous Israeli men, women and children have been killed by Hamas' suicide bombers. But that's the way of wars: shitty things happen.

The cause of this conflict is that Muslims consider that they have a religious claim to the land upon which Israel stands and so do the Jewish people. The conflict will end only when either 1) Muslims accept that Israel has a right to exist or 2) Israel ceases to exists. If Israel permits Hamas to collect weapons, those weapons will be used against Israel. Remember, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and their partners are not interested in compromise; they simply want Israel destroyed and for the land upon which it stands to be returned to Islamic rule.

To my mind, it is unimportant whether it is Muslims or Jews who are religiously/historically entitled to the land upon which Israel stands. The Muslims have no more chance of expelling the Jews than the people native to Australia and America have of expelling the white settlers. And nor should the Jews be expelled; Israel has become to the Jewish people what Australia and America have become to white people. It's their homeland and they should be allowed to remain. The Muslim world needs to accept that and needs to agree that Israel has a right to exist. Then and only then can there be peace in the region.

[Simon]

Right, your government would just standby and let them shell your country and kill your citizens, total Bull Shit!

"Shell" you say? Thats what the Israelis are doing in Gaza as we speak. The rockets that Hamas are shooting haven't even killed 20 people yet. The Gaza deathtoll has now passed over 700 innocent people and children. Overkill, anyone? Disproportionately, anyone?

>>I just heard on the radio that the Israelis had bombed a large house. And the Red Cross wanted to go there and help the people there but they were not allowed by the Israelis. So after 3 DAYS of negotiations the Israelis allowed the Red Cross access to the house. When they got there the Israeli army had surrounded this big house which was in ruins and started to make a huge wall around its area. Inside the ruins the Red Cross found 3 small children, badly hurt and barely alive. Around these 3 children there was 12 dead people, including their parents, laying dead on the ground.<<

Sad. And it's equally sad that numerous Israeli men, women and children have been killed by Hamas' suicide bombers. But that's the way of wars: shitty things happen.

The cause of this conflict is that Muslims consider that they have a religious claim to the land upon which Israel stands and so do the Jewish people. The conflict will end only when either 1) Muslims accept that Israel has a right to exist or 2) Israel ceases to exists. If Israel permits Hamas to collect weapons, those weapons will be used against Israel. Remember, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and their partners are not interested in compromise; they simply want Israel destroyed and for the land upon which it stands to be returned to Islamic rule.

Whether or not it is Muslims or Jews who are religiously/historically entitled to the land upon which Israel stands is unimportant to my mind. The Muslims have no more chance of expelling the Jews than the people native to Australia and America have of expelling the white settlers. And nor should the Jews be expelled; Israel has become to the Jewish people what Australia and America have become to white people. It's their homeland and they should be allowed to remain. The Muslim world needs to accept that and needs to agree that Israel has a right to exist. Then and only then will there be peace in the region.

It's easy for us Westerners to accuse Hamas for terrorism. But they are the true democratically elected government there (more than what you can say about President Bush and his election), and who are we to say they are terrorists when they are just trying to defend themselves from a mighty and powerful, and illegal, occupier by the only means they can?

When Hamas or any other Western marked terrorist organisation bombs a school we call them the worst names possible, we all condemn the attack. But when Israel or any other Government (like the USA does in Iraq and Afghanistan) bomb a school we call it collateral damage.

Imagine what American reaction would have been if Hamas had just killed one of the top Israeli leaders -- like Tzipi Livni -- and her family. No one can honestly say that we would have the same reaction of indifference.

They would be called butcher, madmen, terrorists. Even if you are a hard-core Israel supporter no matter what they do, you have to agree with that. Hamas would be called terrorists for that same exact action. The double standard is sickening. [source]

If you look at the damage and suffering caused you can clearly see that Israel is carrying the biggest burden (I dont even think you can compare the sufferings between Israelis and Palestinians). And Israels actions and current genocide against the Palestinians show that perhaps its the other way around. Perhaps the Israelis dont want the Palestinians to remain and live in peace.

I also thinks it's too late for Israel to ceace to exist. The occupation has gone on for to long. But I dont see a two-state option as possible at the moment due to all the suffering the Israelis has caused to the Palestinians. I fully understand the grudge people living on the West Bank and on the Gaza strip has against Israel.

[brettbh]

>>The rockets that Hamas are shooting haven't even killed 20 people yet. The Gaza deathtoll has now passed over 700 innocent people and children. Overkill, anyone? Disproportionately, anyone?<<

And more than 1,500 Israelis have been killed by Palestinians in suicide bombings, etc. Yup, the Palestinians may be suffering more casualties, but that certainly does not mean that they are blameless victims.

>>It's easy for us Westerners to accuse Hamas for terrorism. But they are the true democratically elected government there (more than what you can say about President Bush and his election), and who are we to say they are terrorists when they are just trying to defend themselves from a mighty and powerful, and illegal, occupier by the only means they can?<<

Hamas' intentions go beyond defending Gaza; they want to destroy Israel and return the territory to Islamic rule.

>>They would be called butcher, madmen, terrorists. Even if you are a hard-core Israel supporter no matter what they do, you have to agree with that. Hamas would be called terrorists for that same exact action. The double standard is sickening. [source]<<

Source? What sort of source is chat show host Cenk Uygur? The comment, "Mandela, Gandhi and King were not just non-violent -- they were bold," demonstrates his lack of knowledge. Ghandi and King may have been non-violent, but Mandela certainly was not (which is not to say that his actions were unwarranted).

>>If you look at the damage and suffering caused you can clearly see that Israel is carrying the biggest burden (I dont even think you can compare the sufferings between Israelis and Palestinians).<<

And Nazi Germany suffered substantially more losses during WW2 than the UK and US combined. Does that mean we should feel sympathy for Hitler and co.?

>>Perhaps the Israelis dont want the Palestinians to remain and live in peace.<<

Hamas' Charter is to, "Raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." Article 7 of the Charter states, "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." Hamas' leader Mahmoud al-Zahar stated that he, "Dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it. This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land."

Why would you even attempt to put a spin on this, Simon? Hamas are terrorists, plain and simple, and are listed as such ny numerous countries and the EU. Their stated aim is to destroy a country that is recognized by the international community.

[Simon]

And more than 1,500 Israelis have been killed by Palestinians in suicide bombings, etc. Yup, the Palestinians may be suffering more casualties, but that certainly does not mean that they are innocent victims or that Israel is solely to blame for the conflict.

Wikipedia has a non-updated list of the Israeli and Palestinian casualties. I dont trust that list for obvious reasons. I especially dont trust the number of Palestinian deaths as it's hard if not nearly impossible to count deaths when your government and system has been bombed away and set in a blockade. I mean, USA cant even count their election votes properly...

[Total Number of Palestinian deaths] : 4209

• Children: 892
  
• Women : 273
  
• Men : 3044
  

[Palestinians killed by Jewish settlers] 72

[Palestinians killed as a result of Israeli shelling] : 83

[Deaths as a result of medical prevention at Israeli checkpoints] : 117

• Of them stillbirths (born dead at checkpoints) : 31
  

[Number of Palestinians extra-judicially assassinated] : 561

• Of them bystanders killed during extra-judicial operations: 253
  

[Total Number Israeli deaths]: 1556

• Children : 113
  
• Women : 305
  
• Men : 603
  
• Settlers : 213
  
• Soldiers : 322
  

The Israelis are far from innocent, they are the illegal occupier, they are the main aggressor and in the end they have the power to decide over the faith of the Palestinians. If Israel wanted peace they would make peace with the Palestinians. But they have more to gain by oppressing the Palestinians.

Hamas' intentions go beyond defending Gaza; they want to destroy Israel and return the territory to Islamic rule.

Yes, but they wouldn't be in power if Israel and the rest of the Western world had shown some compassion and morals towards the Palestinian people.

Source? What sort of source is chat show host Cenk Uygur? The comment, "Mandela, Gandhi and King were not just non-violent -- they were bold," demonstrates his lack of knowledge. Ghandi and King may have been non-violent, but Mandela certainly was not (which is not to say that his actions were unwarranted).

You complained about Monbiot too so I dont take your remarks about Uygur so seriously. Uygur is one of the very few open-minded, objective and democratic commentators in USA today. People like him are rare in the banana-republic of USA these days.

And Nazi Germany suffered substantially more losses during WW2 than the UK and US combined. Does that mean we should feel sympathy for Hitler and co.?

That is something completely different to this situation and you know it. The germans had a choice and the possibility to change direction. But they choose not to. But that doesnt take away the fact that the Allies as well as Nazi Germany and Soviet during that time murdered many innocent people. And those are the ones we should sympathy for, not their nut-case leaders.

>>Perhaps the Israelis dont want the Palestinians to remain and live in peace.<<

Hamas' Charter is to, "Raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." Article 7 of the Charter states, "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

Why would you even attempt to put a spin on this, Simon?

I think I did point out something valid. If you count all deaths, destruction and suffering it becomes pretty clear which side it is who wants to see the other part completely dead. Talk is talk. But actions speak louder than words.

"If you look at the damage and suffering caused you can clearly see that Israel is carrying the biggest burden (I dont even think you can compare the sufferings between Israelis and Palestinians). And Israels actions and current genocide against the Palestinians show that perhaps its the other way around. Perhaps the Israelis dont want the Palestinians to remain and live in peace."

[only_green_no_gray]

Hamas' intentions go beyond defending Gaza; they want to destroy Israel and return the territory to Islamic rule.

They have a good reason to want that. That territory belongs to them since before the crusades, but a couple of centuries ago the British occupied them. So after WW2 the British, pressed by the Americans, gave the authority of those lands to the Jews. And this is how the Israel is born.

So wouldn't you want to do the same if someone had occupied your country?

[brettbh]

>>That is something completely different to this situation and you know it. The germans had a choice and the possibility to change direction. But they choose not to.<<

No, it is not completely different. The Nazis wanted chunks of Europe; Hamas wants Israel. And Hamas do indeed have a choice and the option to change direction. They can simply amend their Charter to recognize the right of Israel to exist rather than threatening to kill the Jews and raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.

>>They have a good reason to want that. That territory belongs to them since before the crusades, but a couple of centuries ago the British occupied them. So after WW2 the British, pressed by the Americans, gave the authority of those lands to the Jews. And this is how the Israel is born.<<

Oh, get real! The Land of Israel has been ruled by Greeks, Persians, Assyrians and Babylonians. The Romans expelled the Jews and the Muslims then expelled the Romans. Who had what and when is old history and completely irrelevant to today's situation. The fact is that Israel has existed as a country for more than 50 years and should be allowed to continue to exist.

[Simon]

Here are more news about the Red Cross story I wrote about earlier: ICRC demands urgent access to wounded as Israeli army fails to assist wounded Palestinians

On the afternoon of 7 January, four Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) ambulances and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) managed to obtain access for the first time to several houses in the Zaytun neighbourhood of Gaza City that had been affected by Israeli shelling.

The ICRC had requested safe passage for ambulances to access this neighbourhood since 3 January but it only received permission to do so from the Israel Defense Forces during the afternoon of 7 January.

The ICRC/PRCS team found four small children next to their dead mothers in one of the houses. They were too weak to stand up on their own. One man was also found alive, too weak to stand up. In all there were at least 12 corpses lying on mattresses.

In another house, the ICRC/PRCS rescue team found 15 other survivors of this attack including several wounded. In yet another house, they found an additional three corpses. Israeli soldiers posted at a military position some 80 meters away from this house ordered the rescue team to leave the area which they refused to do. There were several other positions of the Israel Defense Forces nearby as well as two tanks.

"This is a shocking incident," said Pierre Wettach, the ICRC's head of delegation for Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. "The Israeli military must have been aware of the situation but did not assist the wounded. Neither did they make it possible for us or the Palestine Red Crescent to assist the wounded."

Large earth walls erected by the Israeli army had made it impossible to bring ambulances into the neighbourhood. Therefore, the children and the wounded had to be taken to the ambulances on a donkey cart. In total, the ICRC/PRCS rescue team evacuated 18 wounded and 12 others who were extremely exhausted. Two corpses were also evacuated. The ICRC/PRCS will recover the remaining corpses on Thursday.

The ICRC was informed that there are more wounded sheltering in other destroyed houses in this neighbourhood. It demands that the Israeli military grant it and PRCS ambulances safe passage and access immediately to search for any other wounded. Until now, the ICRC has still not received confirmation from the Israeli authorities that this will be allowed.

The ICRC believes that in this instance the Israeli military failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded. It considers the delay in allowing rescue services access unacceptable.

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Israel BOMBS UN trucks trying to deliever medical supplys to Gaza - kills one UN worker! Hard Not To Be Angry With Israel when they deliberately bombs UN schools and trucks and target civilians on purpose. Israel started the war and never held it's part of the cease-fire agreement.

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War Crimes by Israel being reported

The agency suspended its operations in Gaza on Thursday after it said one person had been killed when a fork-lift truck on an aid mission came under Israeli tank fire at Gaza's Erez crossing.

Separately, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said an alleged failure of the Israeli military to help wounded civilians in Gaza could constitute a war crime.

On Thursday, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said its staff had found four weak and scared children beside their mothers' bodies in houses hit by shelling in the Zeitoun neighbourhood of Gaza City.

Ms Pillay told the BBC: "The incident the Red Cross describes is very troubling because it has all the elements of what constitutes a war crime."

"There is an obligation to protect the wounded, to treat the sick, to remove them to safety and here, according to the Red Cross, Israeli soldiers just stood by and did nothing for these four children and one adult who were too weak to move."

The UN human rights body has demanded that human rights monitors be deployed in Gaza, Israel and the West Bank so that any violations of international law can be documented independently.

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Israel 'shelled civilian shelter'

Israeli forces shelled a house in the Gaza Strip which they had moved around 110 Palestinians into 24 hours earlier, the UN quotes witnesses as saying.

The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) called it "one of the gravest incidents" since the beginning of the offensive.

The shelling at Zeitoun, a south-east suburb of Gaza City, on 5 January killed some 30 people, the report said.

The OCHA report said: "According to several testimonies, on 4 January Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians into a single-residence house in Zeitoun (half of whom were children) warning them to stay indoors.

"Twenty-four hours later, Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30."

The UN said those who survived and were able walked 2km to the main north-south road to be transported to hospital in civilian vehicles.

"Three children, the youngest of whom was five months old, died upon arrival at the hospital," the report said.

"Since the ground operation, the number of children killed has risen by 250%."

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Gaza 'human shields' criticised

Israeli troops had forced Palestinian civilians to stay in their homes after taking them over as sniper positions or bases, it said quoting sources in Gaza.

"This increases risk to families and means they are effectively being used as human shields," the group said.

The use of human shields in conflict is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions.

Article 51.7 states the presence of civilians "shall not be used to... shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations".

Amnesty also criticised Israeli forces for bombing civilian homes after they had been used to launch militant attacks when the attackers had probably fled.

"The army is well aware gunmen usually leave the area after having fired and any reprisal attack against these homes will in most cases cause harm to civilians - not gunmen," said Mr Smart, director of the Middle East and North Africa Programme.

Israeli judges banned the practice in 2005, but Amnesty says troops "frequently" imprison Palestinian families in homes used as military observation and firing positions.

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Israel accused over Gaza wounded

"Our installations have been hit, our workers have been killed in spite of the fact that the Israeli authorities have the co-ordinates of our facilities and that all our movements are co-ordinated with the Israeli army".

Earlier, Unrwa said one person had been killed and two injured when a fork-lift truck on a UN aid mission came under Israeli tank fire at Gaza's Erez crossing.

The UN says the delivery had been co-ordinated with Israel.

The International Committee of the Red Cross accused Israel of failing in its international obligations after its staff were met with "shocking" scenes".

Correspondents say the criticism is unusually strong, coming from an agency considered to be neutral.

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Like I said before: What a bunch of disgusting monsters!

[mountainhiker]

Like I said before: What a bunch of disgusting monsters!

Yes, I agree that Hamas is a bunch of disgusting monsters and the people that blindly support them are also disgusting. <_<

[Simon]

Yes, I agree that Hamas is a bunch of disgusting monsters and the people that blindly support them are also disgusting.

I didn't think you were so cold hearted that you actually approve of Israels disgusting war crimes. If you approve and dont condemn Israels actions you are no better than the IDF monsters performing these hideous atrocities.

Over 800 dead innocent Palestinian people and children compared to the 14 dead IDF soldiers so far. And Israel has the nerves to tell Gazans to prepare for an escalation of military offensive.

[brettbh]

Here are more news about the Red Cross story I wrote about earlier: ICRC demands urgent access to wounded as Israeli army fails to assist wounded Palestinians

As I said at the start of this thread, neither side are innocent victims. But the fact is that the underlying cause of this conflict is Hamas' objective to destroy Israel.

[Simon]

As I said at the start of this thread, neither side are innocent victims. But the fact is that the underlying cause of this conflict is Hamas' objective to destroy Israel.

But if you consider the latest cease-fire agreement between Hamas and Israel you will see that Israel never held their part of the agreement and that Israel started this war.

No rockets or violence from Hamas against Israel was occurring until Israel completely broke the cease-fire agreement. And now we have over 800 dead Palestinian people and children compared to the 14 dead IDF soldiers so far. So your comment holds no ground as it seems that its Israel that wants to completely destroy Gaza and the Palestinian people.

[mountainhiker]

No rockets or violence from Hamas against Israel was occurring until Israel completely broke the cease-fire agreement.

Totally false, Hamas has been firing rockets for a long period with NO retaliation from Israel. You are so totally one sided and blind to the truth it is amazing! If it had been you and your family sitting there being shot at by the Hamas rockets maybe you would be able to extract your head out of your butt just far enough to see another side to this..... :info:

[Simon]

Totally false, Hamas has been firing rockets for a long period with NO retaliation from Israel. You are so totally one sided and blind to the truth it is amazing! If it had been you and your family sitting there being shot at by the Hamas rockets maybe you would be able to extract your head out of your butt just far enough to see another side to this..... :info:

Well I understand that it can be a bit hard for you coming from USA to have any kind of (objective) understanding about the real facts and about the real situation i Gaza and Israel. Your media is so biased its a complete joke to call them news stations. You should just call them propaganda stations.

The fact is that Israel never held their part of the cease-fire agreement. The fact is that no rockets or violence came from Hamas against Israel before Israel broke the cease-fire agreement in a foolish effort to win the coming election.

So far over 800 Palestinians have been killed in this war. 14 IDF soldiers/Israelis have been killed. 4 of them from friendly fire. That pretty much says it all.

[brettbh]

The fact is that Israel never held their part of the cease-fire agreement. The fact is that no rockets or violence came from Hamas against Israel before Israel broke the cease-fire agreement in a foolish effort to win the coming election.

List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008.

This is a list of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel, which occurred in 2008. A cease-fire was agreed to by both sides and began on June 19, 2008. Rocket and mortar attacks still continued throughout the cease-fire although less frequently than before the cease-fire went into effect. A total of 20 rockets and 18 mortars were launched from the signing of the ceasefire until the beginning of November.

[Simon]

List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008.

This is a list of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel, which occurred in 2008. A cease-fire was agreed to by both sides and began on June 19, 2008. Rocket and mortar attacks still continued throughout the cease-fire although less frequently than before the cease-fire went into effect. A total of 20 rockets and 18 mortars were launched from the signing of the ceasefire until the beginning of November.

You fail to give the whole picture. From that very page:

Either you dont read the facts and links I have listed in previous posts or you refuse to acknowledge the fact that Israel NEVER held it's part of the cease-fire agreement.

"Ending the siege has been Hamas' main and constant demand. When the truce began on June 19th Israel permitted increased importation of food, but still only to about 20% of normal levels. The UN's Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food, Robert Falk, has reported levels of hunger inside Gaza that rival those of the poorest sub-Saharan nations and has called the Israeli siege a "crime against humanity." In November, Israel launched two military attacks that effectively ended the truce and led to the resumption of rocket attacks; nonetheless in December Hamas offered to extend the truce if Israel would only lift the siege. Israel was not interested; thereafter Hamas increased the intensity of the attacks, culminating in a barrage the week of Christmas that prompted the initiation of Operation Cast Lead (although, as I have pointed out in an earlier post, that operation had been planned for months)." [source: Israel in Gaza: Three Wrong Arguments]

You should read that whole article. And maybe you would learn something?

[only_green_no_gray]

Oh, get real! The Land of Israel has been ruled by Greeks, Persians, Assyrians and Babylonians. The Romans expelled the Jews and the Muslims then expelled the Romans. Who had what and when is old history and completely irrelevant to today's situation. The fact is that Israel has existed as a country for more than 50 years and should be allowed to continue to exist.

You didn't get my point and you didn't answer to my question.

First of all i didn't said that the Hamas has the right to destroy Israel, i only said one of the reasons why Palestinian don't like Israel.

But i do think that what the British did after WW2 was wrong and that the Arabs have the right to be angry about it

So what would you do if your country was occupied?

[Simon]

You didn't get my point and you didn't answer to my question.

First of all i didn't said that the Hamas has the right to destroy Israel, i only said one of the reasons why Palestinian don't like Israel.

But i do think that what the British did after WW2 was wrong and that the Arabs have the right to be angry about it

So what would you do if your country was occupied?

Be careful Miguel. They might accuse you of being anti-semitic! :rolleyes:

[mountainhiker]

You didn't get my point and you didn't answer to my question.

First of all i didn't said that the Hamas has the right to destroy Israel, i only said one of the reasons why Palestinian don't like Israel.

But i do think that what the British did after WW2 was wrong and that the Arabs have the right to be angry about it

So what would you do if your country was occupied?

And you miss a key point or two, Israel has existed for more than 50 years and this was NEVER the land of Hamas. They do not have the right to murder who they please. Clearly anti-semitic types support them and continue to paint them as some kind of heros fighting for their "mother country". brettbh is correct in his brief history lesson, but the bottom line is that you cannot support a bunch of criminals trying to bring down a government recognized by the UN as being valid. Angry over what happened at the end of WWII is fine but at some point you have to accept the reality of history.

[brettbh]

Simon says:

>>None of these rockets and mortars is the work of Hamas<<

Why do you say that? Because nobody claimed responsibility for some of the rockets? Or because some previously unheard of group claimed reponsibility?

Miguel says:

>>But i do think that what the British did after WW2 was wrong and that the Arabs have the right to be angry about it<<

And the Jews could be angry too! And they could also be angry at the Italians who expelled them from the Land of Israel a couple of thousand years ago and at the Spanish who expelled them from Spain in the 1400s. And the Brits could still be angry at the Swedes over Viking raids and at the Germans, Italians and Japanese. And black Americans could still be angry at the white Americans who imported their ancestors. And both black and white Americans could be angry at the Brits. Get over it! The Muslim world needs to accept that things are as they are and to work towards peace. Were every country, race and religion to hold onto their old grudges, the whole world would be at war!

>>So what would you do if your country was occupied?<<

Were I a Gazan, I'd want my government to accept that Israel has a right to exist. I'd want my government to remove from its official Charter all references to killing Jews and "raising the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." I'd want my government to cease the actions that cause it to be branded as a terrorist organization by almost every country in the world. I'd want my government to break its links with Islamic Jihad and other terrorist organizations. Once that had been done, I'd want my government to come to the negotiating table with Israel and work out a deal.